Boundaries for People Pleasers with Guest Kara Regas

Are you a people pleaser? Do you struggle with perfectionism? Do you have trouble setting boundaries at work or at home? You are in the right place! Listen in this week when our guest Kara Regas talks us through some scenarios just in time for the holidays.

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Serena: Hey everyone, I'm Serena

Tina: And I'm Tina and we are the Mental Health Mamas.


Serena: Welcome to No Need to Explain. We are so glad you're here.

Tina: First as always a quick disclaimer.

Serena: We come to you not as mental health professionals or experts in the field, but rather as parents with lived experience who are on a mission to normalize the conversation around mental health.

Tina: If you or someone you love is experiencing a mental health crisis, please seek professional support. You'll find a variety of resources in our show notes and on our website

Tina: When we first started engaging with our next guest, I read her

website and totally started to relate. I read testimonials. It was

eerily relatable. I am so, so here are some quotes. I'm so afraid of failing

that sometimes I don't take any action. Another, I find myself saying

sorry all the time, which is how I started this call. I can't stand when people are mad at me. I avoid conflicts at all costs and all that could kept coming to my head was this very accurately describes my

third kid in the birth order self.

Serena: Well, I relate to this as well and I am not. I am not a third kid. So our guest today, Kara Regas is a certified life coach. She specializes in helping folks let go of people pleasing behaviors and set healthy boundaries. Through her experience with abuse, divorce, and loss, she was forced to take a hard look at what kind of person she wanted to be for herself and her daughter. Kara, welcome to the podcast.

Kara: Thank you so much for having me.

Tina: So let's jump right in. The words that caught our attention on your profile were boundaries for people pleasers. Tell us a bit

of, let's just start with your backstory.

Kara: Sure. Okay. So, um, well, I am I'm originally a Michigan girl. I'm from the States, but I do live in the Czech Republic now since 2008. I have a little girl who's 10 and I've been working as a coach now for getting close to three years now. Um, but how we ended up in this profession and, you know, in this particular niche was as with a lot

of us. It was it was my own experiences. Um, I was, uh, in a relationship

that had a lot of, uh, I'm gonna use the word toxic qualities and I'm using it in a very real way. Not in the, the way that maybe it gets overused. Um, so there was manipulation there. There was all kinds of things going on that, uh, made me actually reach out to my own coach. Um, and through that, I started to be able to put things together as far as, uh, what was actually going on, what I was experiencing, and also my side of it, right? Because we can be in an abusive relationship. And there's usually a reason why we ended up. There's always that second side of it. And my side of it was that I had sort of chronic people pleasing going on. Uh, the clinical terminology, if we were to broaden

that would be codependent, right? Which basically means, uh, always needing another person to be okay. So it's almost like emotionally drafting off of another person. And you can be codependent with a partner, but you can also be codependent with a parent or sibling or a friend or even a coworker or a boss. But, um, that's all to say that I worked with a coach to put all the words to this, to start to put it together and really understand the story of how I got to where I was. And, um, then, of course, I got divorced, separated, divorced and started, you know, putting the pieces back together for myself. And the sort of final piece of that has been shifting my career away from, uh, what I've been doing previously, which was, you know, in the sort of copywriting, uh, teaching English area into coaching.

Serena: Yeah. So let's, let's shift to that. You, um, you've shared with us

that you started seeing the same kind of, I don't know if we would call them traits or, um, you know, sort of habits or ways of being and, and other people and you discovered that you were not alone, right?

Kara: Exactly. Exactly. And, and the word that I really love to use here, when we talk about traits or habits, I think sometimes those can be useful, but I like to use the word strategies. Hmm. And the reason I use the word strategies is because when we have, when we use the strategy of people pleasing, for example, we developed that for a really good reason, right? Because so often we look at these kinds of things and we say, oh, I have this terrible habit of, you know, being a people pleaser. It's like, okay, well, that's not really fair to you because the reason you developed that strategy of people pleasing was that you didn't feel like you had another choice. So for a lot of us, especially people socialized as women, we were in an environment growing up where that felt like the only way to get the attention and affirmation that we needed from our primary caregivers. So that's why I use the word strategy because it wasn't a choice.

Tina: Right.

Kara: You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So yeah, I see a lot of people with this and, you know, I hinted to the fact that they are a lot of them women, but not all of them. And that's usually where we start. We usually start with looking at not too far back because I'm not doing therapy, right? But it is really useful to see these shared patterns of why we ended up using this strategy, how it has served us, how it has helped us, and also the ways in which it's not helping us and that we need to do something about it.

Tina: Yeah. So it's interesting. And I'll circle back to the, you know,

women part. So in 2022 poll from, it's the market research and data analytics firm. Researchers surveyed 1,000 American adults and found that about half 49% would identify as people pleasers.

And of those 56% of women were more likely to be people pleasers

than men at 42%. And I'm curious, let's, you've identified people

pleasing and kind of coupled it with co-dependence. I'm curious if you

could address the, what's the danger in people pleasing? Some people might say, oh, well, I make people happy. I'm, you know, really, I care about people deeply. So I'm curious, go there. What's the


Kara: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really glad that you highlighted that

because, you know, we can respect it as a strategy and also really,

really need to look at what it's doing to us. And I think the tricky

thing about this strategy of people pleasing is that it is societally acceptable behavior. In fact, it's encouraged. Right. If you think about what people pleasing when we think of it in a positive way, what do we think of? We think of somebody who is always available to other people who is kind, who thinks of other people, who puts them, puts themselves in other people's shoes. Right. And those can be really positive qualities. But when we do that chronically, and if when we do that without also giving our own needs and desires, attention, it creates really serious deficit in ourselves, in our energy in old ways, in our emotional energy, in our mental energy, in our physical energy, in our spiritual energy, across the gamut. So, so that's one of the things that happens in people pleasing is one is it just really burns you out. And the people that I see sometimes, they're so used to being in that state

of chronic. And I'm using the word burnout here, and I don't mean it

necessarily in a medical context, right? Because again, that's sort of out

of my purview. But it's a useful term here because it does sort of encompass that sense of being drained in more than one way, right? Not just the physical way, but also the emotional way, for example.

But anyway, that's that's one sort of danger people pleasing is that you will be burned out. And the people that I speak to almost always have it to such an extent that they're not even aware of it. It's just sort of their norm. Right? But then the other thing that we have to talk about with this is the fact that when you're people pleasing, you are not really aware of yourself. And this goes a little bit more into the codependency. But the two are like people pleasing is just codependency in action. That's a good way of seeing it. So when you are people pleasing, what you're doing is thinking about others before you, but so much so that the way that you feel is dependent on how other people feel. So if the people around you are good, you're good. If the people around you, for example, you feel like they're upset with you,

or you have to work out some problem. You feel like you're going to be in conflict and it just sets off all these alarm bells in you. You're going to work so hard to fix that person. But the problem is, is that other people aren't actually in our control. That's the energy drain of it. But then there's also just the depersonalization of it, right? Because when you're always thinking about other people's experience, you reach a point where you don't know who you are, what you want, what you like, what your opinions are, and most importantly, what your needs are at any moment, moment to moment. And this is a real issue that doesn't get talked about enough when we talk about people pleasing.

Tina: Yeah. So I guess where my head goes to is, I'm not enough. I can't do enough for people. I can't do enough. Yeah. So I can feel that and it is draining, right?

Serena: Yeah. So let's talk about sort of the, you know, what we're going to do now, right? So the idea of boundary setting and we know as caregivers, we give and give and give some more. And sometimes there's this feeling that it's selfish to set boundaries. So talk us through this. Is it okay for us to set boundaries?

Kara: Oh my goodness. It's not only the opposite of selfish to set boundaries, but it's respectful to the other people around you. So we have to say here that when people think of boundaries, I think they often think about because they're coming from a people pleasing perspective, and again, the people pleasing perspective is by definition the need, the idea of controlling other people, right? So it makes sense that we, we think about this in a way that's a little bit warped, but boundaries are not rules. So a rule is about controlling other people.

A rule is you, other person, are allowed to do this, and you're not allowed to do that. And rules are appropriate, obviously, in some circumstances. So for example, adults to children, or at work, there are certain rules you've signed the contract you're going to follow those rules. But boundaries, the great thing about them is they are focused on you, and what you will and won't do. Your actions. So for example, let's say you are at Thanksgiving dinner, and let's just say her name is Aunt Susan. She's a trigger for you. Maybe she says some things about certain ways of thinking or lifestyles that you find uncomfortable, you don't agree with, that you find them insulting, you feel disrespected by her, right? And you know, she's going to be at Thanksgiving. If you set a rule that rule would be, she's not allowed to either maybe show up at all, that could be extreme, or she's not allowed to talk about x, y, and z topics. Those would be rules because again, you're trying to control the other person's behavior. But when you set a boundary in the situation, you're not trying to control Susan's behavior. You're saying what you will and won't do if she starts talking about x, y, and z. And you don't even have to say that ahead of time. You can just know going into Thanksgiving dinner. Okay, I know Susan, she can be really triggering for me. If she starts talking about x, y, and z, you know, step one's just going to be to remove myself, go into the bathroom, take a break. If it keeps happening, you know, I might, you know, go to this other family member who I know will be able to be supported of me, or take a walk, and then if it reaches, you know, the third level, I'm I myself will leave. You guys see the difference between the two.

Tina: That is crystal clear. That's really good. I'm glad you brought up a holiday since holidays are coming up. We will be spending time with people who we don't usually spend time with. So I'm just going to address another thing that bogs me down in the holidays is the people pleasing perfectionism of everything, right? And I can imagine applying this a little bit to, you know, boundary setting around my having nothing to do with other people, but around my own perfectionism and, and people pleasing, right? For example, okay, here, I'm just going to be your client for a moment and say I have family coming for Thanksgiving,

and they're coming for like a long time, like a week and a half. And every morning, I feel like I have to put out the perfect breakfast for everyone. I need to make sure there's everything ready and feed everyone and do all the things. Kara Help Me!!

Kara: Okay, so it's really great that you just brought this example here because just yesterday, I was coaching one of my clients on this same

sort of thing. It was about her hosting a party at her house and already dreading it. Because she knew she was going to be over what's the word, not overperforming. I always forget this. She was going to be, let's just say, overdoing, right? Like exerting herself in all these ways

that was going to leave her feeling exhausted and drained by the end of the party. Sounds like a really similar situation. So there's the perfectionism in needing the breakfast to look a certain way to make sure that everybody gets what they need, you know, different preferences, for example. I mean, you're having people staying at your house, you're thinking about their sleeping quarters. Are they comfortable? You're also thinking interpersonally, right? This person doesn't necessarily want to spend a lot of time around that person. So there's like this sense of running interference. Is this sounding familiar?

Tina: You're doing fine. Keep going. And you're just going to add one piece of this. I do love my guests. And I think part of this is just my, it's all about me. They're fine getting their own drinks out of the refrigerator and feeding themselves the thing called the sitting on the counter, right? It is about me doing all the things because because the layer is, I am a mama. I take care of people. You know, I, I have people coming who, you know, have said to me, like, you're such a great hostess, you, do all of the things. So that is just like, whoa, I, I'm in my house, right?

Kara: I hear you. It becomes an identity. And this is exactly what I meant when I said that people pleasing is much deeper than just an annoying habit that makes you tired because what you're just telling me was my identity is around all of these compliments that I get for essentially martyring myself. And this is not your fault, right? This is very much baked into us culturally as women, right? Because of the stereotypes going back, however, my years that being a woman,

your primary, like the, the most proud you can be is to be a mama to be self, you know, sacrificing and giving them to others and so on and so on, right? But you, I mean, if you were like me, you grew up in an environment where this was getting reinforced in you from the time you were a little kid, right? So it makes sense that doing something to the contrary of that feels selfish or wrong. And it's not just because of the behavior itself, it's because you're not sure who you would be if not this, right? This is why we work on this stuff because it's not just about

dealing with the behaviors. It's about building a new sense of self so that you can go and be an autonomous human in the world and have your own interests and have your own impulses and your own ideas. And there's so much freedom in that and so much energy in that. So if we go back to the situation at hand, we can break it down. I'm thinking now back to the session I had last night because it's fresh in my mind. So what she said last night was, I have this impulse that I need to

get everything, right? That I need to provide all of the drinks and the food and I have to set everything out and I have to serve everyone as soon as they walk in. And all we have to do is we have to just challenge that to say, okay, can we divide responsibilities here? Yes, I'm the host

so I have some responsibilities, right? I have the responsibility to let's say provide the shelter, right? But beyond that, what she realized is she could send a group text to everybody in the party. That said, please bring one thing to drink and one snack to share. Boom, done. She didn't have to prepare any of that, right? I mean, that's a huge amount of time and energy that she was spending on doing that herself, right? So that was the first thing. And then the second thing was she realized that she could simply have all of the, you know, the plates, the silverware or whatever was needed that way, cups and bottle openers, whatever sat out in her kitchen. And when everybody came in, she would say, welcome, come in, set your food here, set the drinks here. Here's all the plates and the cups help yourself. This is so it was just about reorienting toward who's responsible for this and who's responsible for this and remembering to treat people like the grown adults that they are. Sorry, go ahead.

Tina: You were so helpful. So helpful. I am having grown adults. I do not have to take care of any children who cannot take care of themselves. So thank you.

Kara: Exactly. But that, this is the thing. I think it's so helpful to refrain and start using that word adult because that's really what we're doing with people, when more people please in the midst. We're treating them like children and that's why I said it's respectful to other people to have those kinds of boundaries. And this is, by the way, a boundary here. Boundaries are not necessarily only about certain situations what you will and won't do. They're also around things like self-respect. A boundary here is I respect my own time and energy enough to set this up in a way where it's clear who has this responsibility and who has that responsibility.

Serena: Okay. So I'm going to shift us a little bit here to the workplace. So this is so going to throw my issue into the episode as well.

Tina: I think we're getting some free coaching here. Thank you.

Serena: We are. We're taking advantage.

Kara: I'm here for it and here for it.

Serena: So I would say like like many places, at least in the US,

we are incredibly understaffed. And the workload has not changed. In fact, it has increased and so that looks like fewer people doing more work. And I'm feeling exhausted for sure. So talk to me about how we set boundaries in the workplace.

Kara: Okay. So this is great because I've got another client example that I can give you for this. Okay. So it does seem that there is a situational thing going on here. And I would love to see an analysis of this on a cultural level as well if we think about like the sort of puritanical work ethic, all of that how it plays into this. But I think specific examples are easiest to read. So if it's okay, I'll just use this person as an example. Okay. So this person who I'm coaching, we're coaching on more on burnout for him, but he's realizing that a lot of it has to do with boundaries. So he's a consultant in a large organization. And when he took on that role, he had the sense that consultant meant do anything at any time for anyone. But it was this catch all. And he worked under those conditions for a couple of years until he reached out to me because he just couldn't do it anymore. Right. So he had a scope issue. And I think this is true for a lot of people right now, is as some people leave the companies instead of other people being hired on their scope is just broadening and broadening. Right. And what I believe keeps people from speaking up for themselves. And I understand there's a real fear of literally losing your job and your job is your life. And we have to, we have to, I'm not trying to ignore that or gloss over that. But I think what's really useful to think about here is what is driving the fear other than that, I get that. But also what assumptions are driving the fear of me talking to my manager of this. So those assumptions in my experience usually sound like they're going to think that I don't care about the work or they're going to think that I'm lazy or they're going to think that I'm just trying to get out of work. And when those kinds of assumptions are driving the conversation, let's say that's just what's active in your imagination as you're sitting down for a one-on-one, for example, that's going to come through. And I don't mean to be woo woo about this. And I don't mean it in a woo woo away. But when you're carrying an assumption about yourself, it comes through to that other person. And here's the thing about this. This is what happened with this client is when we dug into the assumptions, we realized that those were actually just things that he'd taken on from being a human in the world for more or less. You're reading articles on the internet and hearing discussions about these kinds of things about the workforce. For him, he genuinely wants to do a really good job. That was the bottom line. And that was what he needed to bring into the one-on-one with his manager, right? Not these ideas of, oh, you know, people are trying to get out of work or I'm lazy or no, no, no, no. I'm really trying to do

a good job. And having, in this case, a scope that doesn't have enough structure around it, that doesn't have any stop signs of access to me, that's actually making me do a worse job. So that's what I would say to setting boundaries at work is getting really clear on that, because I have yet to meet someone who doesn't want to do a good job at work, right? And we have all these ideas of what we think our manager is going to think. And it's possible that they would, but if you are clear on that, going into those conversations with your manager, then you're able to actually say it's going to be really important for me in order to do the best job that I can do to get clear on which of these things really belong to me and which of these don't, right? And a lot of times you can pair things back in that way, whether it's access to you, right? So there's all different kinds of work boundaries you're going to have, like access to you in terms of time of day, some workplaces, there are practices where

they've got team members or even managers texting or emailing well after working hours or all weekends or holidays, right? So just starting at that basic level, but then also in terms of scope, as I said before, right? So looking at what are truly my responsibilities, how have they widened, and how has that affected my performance at work? And you can keep it just to work if you don't feel comfortable talking about it, but if you do, I would encourage you to also talk about how it's affecting your, let's say, physical health, right? Companies usually respond

pretty well to that too.

Serena: Yeah. Oh, I appreciate that.

Kara: How is that hitting you guys? I'm curious what you think of that interpretation because it is just my interpretation. There's lots of ways to think about this stuff.

Serena: Yeah, I mean, it's, I feel like I'm, it's a lot of sort of a process and think about, and I do have, I have to say, my brain is like pushing back like doing that, but, but like,

Tina: And I love that you bring up the cultural, the deep cultural. So, you know, my husband's in finance. And so I just feel like in that world, it is all about the do do do do do do do do do and you know, and now he's an administrator and with the world the way that it is, you know, it's constant pressure to make decisions and do all the things. And so it is so cultural, right? It's so cultural that we can't, you know, we used to live across the street from a wonderful philosopher who I loved watching him garden and think, right? He used to say, I'm not going to respond to an angry email after 10 p.m. because by 8 a.m., the whole mood is going to shift to that. In that, it's not going to be the crisis that it was at 10 a.m. hopefully. I mean, at 10 p.m. hopefully, right? So,

I think, yeah, I think we have a lot of work to do, right? We have a lot to do in our world.

Kara: It is super ingrained. And I'm sorry to come in just now. I really, that was really interesting, and it made me think of something as well. Like, to give a really concrete example is this, these kinds of boundaries don't even need to start by having, for example, a one-on-one with your

manager. They can start by you looking at your own habits and the ways in which you are allowing people to have access to you when it's not actually working for you, right? So, for example, like, for me, my boundary is, and it's a boundary because it's what I'm going to do, right? I'm not telling other people what they can do. I do not open my emails on the weekend full stop. At all, personal business, not at all. There is nothing that important. Unless they're, I'm specifically expecting something out of the ordinary, I just do not open it. And that's for my own nervous system to get a chance to get all the way back down. Because email has this way of revenue as I think it does for

a lot of people. And I know that about myself, right? Another boundary would be for some people that they, same thing on holidays, right? It's really easy to work through holidays. But email is a really nice place to start. Or I'm only going to check my email at, for example, nine o'clock,

one o'clock, and four o'clock.

Tina: I like that.

Kara: And outside of those hours, I literally close the application. It's like, there is nothing that is the world. I'm sorry, but none of us have like access to the nuclear codes, okay? There is nothing that high stakes that can't wait a couple of hours. And our brains don't work this way. You know how when you get a new email notification and you can see it on your desktop and it pinks. And you see either a sound or you see a visual, right? That is your brain. That takes your attention away. And that process of taking your attention away is exhausting. And to bring your attention back, right? So for my phone, for example, I have email on my phone, but I have all the notifications off. Because otherwise,

I would be exhausted by these. Just taking in that information of somebody has written something.

Tina: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I think you're leading us nicely into the next question, which is, you know, we are helpers in the world. You are helping lots of people stay well. And I'm going to put it right back on you and say other than giving yourself a moratorium on emails

at some point. What are you doing to take good care of yourself Kara?

Kara: What I'm thinking about right now is when you were talking about the way the world is, you know, having a husband and finance, for example, that whole element. When I think about the way that I live my life, most people would think that I was crazy. I spend a lot of time not doing very much. And that's partly because I'm still in what I would

call a recovery mode of my life, of my mental and physical health, right? But that said, I don't think I'll ever go back to the way that I used to. I mean, I'm in control of my own hours. Obviously, I'm not in a situation where I have to be working at certain times for certain lengths. And I understand that there's a massive amount of privilege in having that set up. I also chose that set up distinctly because I knew that it was necessary for me for my health to do that if I don't do that, I generally burn out. So that's one way that I manage myself, right? I make

sure that I have downtime. And when I say downtime, I don't mean watching things or using technology. My downtime lately, I've got it right here behind me. I've got my yoga mat. I've got a blanket on it.

And I lay flat on my stomach on the floor for like five or 10 minutes in just breath. It's so little of that happening now. I'm really blessed to have a friend who's almost saying wavelength with me. Her and I, I feel like we're moving through the world together in this new way. She gets it, you know, her and I were, we can sit and we're just still together. There's not that go, go, go, do, do, do energy. And I feel like, and I'm very much that type A person by nature, right? So it's a concerted effort to make different choices. But that's generally, you know, what I would say other than the things I've already mentioned about protecting my time and people's access to me. Another thing is I don't answer texts right away unless I feel like it, but I check in with myself, like, and I really prepared to write this person right now. Not really, okay, it can wait. It's not a big deal.

Tina: And you make a really good point about the privilege, right,

because some people might listen and say, well, you, you have that. I am in a very busy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what you're saying is you lie in your belly for five minutes. Who doesn't have five minutes in their day? And it doesn't have to be get a yoga mat to blanket. It could be a lot of other things, right? And five minutes in your day, I just love how you framed this, right? Because I do think I've always believed we are much more effective and fill in the blank parents, workers, you know, whatever, whatever you're doing, you're much more effective when you can be in that frontal cortex and many times we are totally not. We are in this frantic state of getting all the things done.

Kara: Exactly. And I would also challenge that phrase being effective a little bit. And I know that that's a tricky one. If we were to jump even further outside of the standard paradigm, right, there's this idea of

well, rest makes you more productive. And it's like way, way, way to minute, hold the phone. Can rest just be rest? Does it, does it have to be in service of doing more? Because here's the thing like you mentioned earlier, I feel like I'm not enough, right? Rest in for a rest's sake without it needing to be because I have to do did it at next or because it's going to make me a better parent or a better spouse or whatever. If it's just because I am a human and humans deserve rest, that's speaking directly against that I'm not enough. So these things are not just practical. They're also working on that sense of worthiness, of I'm autonomous. I'm me. I'm separate from other people. I have my own ideas. I have my own experience.

Serena: It also, it makes me think of sometimes when people talk about self-care, they use the analogy of the oxygen mask on the airplane. It's not our favorite analogy because it's the idea is you're doing something for yourself to then help somebody else. I mean, clearly it's what needs to happen on the airplane, but yeah, not in terms of self-care.

Kara: And the other thing we can say about self-care too, I think it's still important now, is self-care has been packaged and sold back to us as something, first of all, to spend money on. But beyond that, it's like another thing to do. And I'm sorry, but I am not into that kind of self-care. Like another exercise program that I have to plan and follow and buy the special foods for and get the special gym equipment for or spend money on and so on. And it requires all this extra mental energy to fit in the self-care so much so that I would say that it generally

cancels itself out. So when we're thinking about all this stuff, if we want to take it back home, it is about just looking at what do I need? How can I show myself that I'm deserving? And what can I do right now? Just just a little thing, like what can I do right now? And sometimes for me, girls, I gotta tell you, it's so simple. I literally just sit still. Ideally with my phone in another room with the silence. Because that's a distraction, but zone out. Or zone in. Like that's the other thing. We're not in our bodies, right? We spend so much time like just completely unaware of our physical bodies. Just being like, oh my gosh, I can feel my butt on the seat.

Tina: So, Kara, we are clearly totally into this because we k eep having this conversation. And I can imagine that other people will want to connect with you. And I'm curious how they might find you.

Kara: Sure thing. They can find me on my website, which is just my name, They can also find me on Instagram. That's my name again. I know you're not supposed to do that, but I don't know. I mean, I'll figure like it's already out there everywhere. I'll like on Facebook, whatever. Anyway, so you can check me out on Instagram and private message me there or from my website. And on my website, if anyone's interested or if you girls are interested, I do have a free resource on there. It's a boundaries workbook that you do them through together. It includes a self coaching model that is a really nice place to start off.

Serena: Love it. We'll definitely check that out. So, Kara, thank you so much for joining us today and giving us a little free coach. We definitely did.

Kara: It was scratch the surface, you guys. There's so much more,

so much more. But I was really happy to be here. It was super fun to chat with you guys.

Tina: So podcast friends, we are as always grateful for all of you listening and supporting us. You can help us out by visiting Apple podcasts. Leave us a review while you're there. Subscribe and please share the podcast with others. You can find more content and the links to Kara's Instagram and her website. On our website, You can find us on all the socials. We'd love to hear from you. We have a voicemail number, which you can find in our show notes. You can leave us a message. You can share a bit of your story. Give us some ideas for podcasts or just call to say hi.

Serena: This is your gentle reminder to take good care of yourself while you're also taking care of your people.

Tina: Thanks so much for listening.

Serena: Bye.