Change Management with Guest Megan Sweet

Serena: Hey Everyone, I’m Serena.

Tina: And I’m Tina and we are the Mental Health Mamas.

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Serena: Welcome to No Need to Explain, we are so glad you’re here.

Tina: First, as always, a quick disclaimer.

Serena: We come to you NOT as mental health professionals or experts in the field, but rather as the parents of kids who struggle with their emotional health.

Tina: If you or someone you love is experiencing a mental health crisis, please seek professional support. You’ll find a variety of resources in our show notes and on our website, NoNeedToExplainPodcast.com.

Serena: Tina, our listeners may not know this, but your life has been full of a number of transitions lately, right?

Tina: Yeah, that is a bit of a...yes, transition is one way to put it. I have moved multiple times in the past year. And while ultimately it will be a positive change, the stuff in the middle...that liminal space...not for me, not my favorite.

Serena: Yeah I totally hear you on that. So I bring up the idea of transition because we have a guest here with us today who works in the field of education change management. Megan Sweet has a Doctoral degree in Educational Leadership and specializes in leading community-driven education transformation. Megan is also a lifelong mindfulness practitioner, a podcaster and a single mom. Megan, welcome to the podcast!

Megan: Hi! Thank you both for having me.

Tina: So Megan, let’s start by talking about the work you do around change management. As I mentioned, I’ve been dealing with a lot of change myself lately. So can you share with us what this looks like in the work that you do?

Megan: Yeah, that’s a great question. So when I was in graduate school I studied, what’s the best way to make a change happen and stick in schools. That was the focus. So maybe I’ll share a little bit about the kinds of changes I tend to lead and then what that can look like. So, you know, I’ve done everything from closing schools to helping schools to redesign and reopen. I’ve helped to lead change across the whole state of California when we adjusted to a new funding formula. And I’ve helped teachers make structural changes in their classroom when I was a school administrator. So I’ve had change on the small and the very large scale and really a lot of common things come through.

Number one, even if it’s a change you want, that doesn’t necessarily mean that we meet it with a lot of joy and enthusiasm. No matter what, change is really overwhelming for people, it can feel hard, and bring up a lot of complicated emotions. So that’s number one.

So number two, because I know of number one, I believe in being as transparent as possible. So I think what change looks like when you do it effectively is that it’s open and collaborative. So you make sure that everyone knows what’s happening every step along the way, right? That allows our effective filters to drop a little bit. We can trust and we know what’s coming and so we can start to follow along in the change process. We keep people informed by making sure they know what’s happening each step along the way but we also ask questions and engage people in the change that we’re imagining so that they can help to add their expertise to that change.

Often school folks don’t like to do that last part, the asking other people part because it can feel like, ugh, it’s gonna slow down the process and we have to explain ourselves to people and they don’t really know what our perspective is or what’s important. And generally my answer to that is well you tell everybody because that helps people understand why the change is necessary, but also everyone has unique perspectives that make the change stronger if you take the time to listen to them. And sometimes we actually can go faster later if we do all that careful engagement in the beginning because we miss some mistakes or some blind spots that we automatically have that people in the community, sometimes kids… I brought my kid on a school walk-through for a change and he identified things that I didn’t see. I like to think I’m an expert, but from his perspective he identified things that were really important for him that I could build into that change process that ultimately made the experience better for kids. So everyone’s got something to say and it’s really just about opening up to listen to it.

Serena: Yeah, we love that. As family people ourselves, the idea of the collaborative process and the input from everybody, we believe strongly that everybody has a piece of it, right? And I hear what you’re saying too about it working faster in the end knowing that, you know, if everybody has buy-in, it’s a different kind of change, right?

Tina: Well and we always talk about that. That trust building piece, right? And if you are working with people you feel are being transparent and collaborative and that trust just comes along with it. So yeah, I can see that happening.

Megan: Yeah, you know, it’s so interesting. I think people feel like, if you don’t tell something, that is a better way to build trust than telling even a hard truth. And what I’ve found is that it’s the exact opposite. If you tell a hard truth and you say it honestly with as much information as you can, people might struggle with it but they’re gonna come along with you. But when you obscure those hard truths because you think that you’re doing people a favor, people sense that you’re obscuring something even if you think you’re being helpful. And they pick up on that and it starts to erode the trust and then things just get harder and then they don’t actually ever let down and listen. So I’ve been able to do some pretty big changes like closing a neighborhood school that generations of families had gone to without any fuss because I just told those hard truths right from the beginning and I told them what my challenges were in the community and had them help me come up with solutions. So in the end, they didn’t necessarily like what was happening, like it wasn’t their favorite thing but they understood it and understood why and felt some ownership in the direction that things were going in and that just made all the difference in the world. So I think, tell the truth to the extent that you can. There’s always stuff that you have to keep confidential but tell people when you can’t tell them. Like, yeah, this is confidential or this isn’t the level of information that you have access to and just be clear. I think it just makes a big difference no matter what you’re talking about. I do the same thing with my kid so I’m not, this isn’t something I don’t also do at home as well.

Serena: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we’re aware too that you have had some very recent transitions personally. And so if you’re OK talking about it, I wonder if you could share about your own, maybe, personal change management?

Megan: Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. I don’t listen to my own advice very often when I write books about it. So that’s number one problem. You know, so, for multiple years I’ve been wanting to go off on my own and start my own consulting business and have that be just what I do. And I’ve had a lot of fear around that. I’m a single parent. I’m solely responsible for my son’s financial needs for the most part. So, you know, I can’t go down. I have to keep things going. And what I did was I just decided, well, I’m gonna do both. I’m gonna work and I’m gonna do this consulting business and that’s how I’m gonna make it happen. And I did that for multiple years and what I finally got to is, I expended my considerable amount of energy and I do have a lot which I think sometimes is actually a detriment to me. But I finally expended it to the point where I was just exhausted. I was sitting on the couch just kind of staring off into space catatonically by the end of the day. You know, working 12, 15 hour weeks, I mean, hour days. You know, 5, 6, 7 days a week often not taking a day off for months at a time so that I could do the consulting and the personal job at the same time. And finally it was my son who called it to my attention. So he does live with his father too half time and, you know, he basically said to me, I don’t want to grow up. What you’re doing looks terrible. I certainly don’t want to work that much and just be that exhausted at the end of the day and he didn’t want to do what it looked like at his dad’s house either. And that was a big wake up call for me as is often the case when he calls me out on something, I pay attention. And he was right. I wasn’t enjoying my life either. I was pretty miserable. I was working way too much. I was way too exhausted. My energy was really short with him and everything and I certainly wasn’t doing a good job almost anywhere. I was spread way too thin.

So I finally just decided to go for it. So this is the beginning of month two of my new being unemployed and only employed by myself. I guess I’m employed by myself so just running the consulting firm. And letting go of a job that I’d poured a lot of my heart and soul into. And it’s been a lot. And I think the main thing that I’m noticing is, I’m laughing more and I resisted this for so many years because I was so worried about it and now that I’ve like, stepped into the unknown, some jobs have come my way without me having to do much around having them happen. I have a lot more opportunity to do things that I want to do and again, I just laugh more. I have time to exercise. I’m quicker when I am working because I’m not just so tired and working through the exhaustion to show up. So that’s a little bit about my recent change. It was absolutely, for sure, not an easy decision. I’d been contemplating it for years and I’ve just heard people say, like, jumped off the cliff and it was easy. I’ll just say that for me that wasn’t true at all. But I did and I survived and I’m glad I’ve done it. So that’s where I’m at. Yeah.

Tina: Yeah. And I love that you said, you basically are working smarter now, right? You are taking good care of yourself and when you work you are far more productive. I’d like everyone who is a workaholic out there to hear that, right?

Megan: I know. We think we’re so clever and we can fool ourselves but it doesn’t work. Our brains do take over eventually and slow us down. So yeah, I’m absolutely smarter and better working less.

Tina: Yeah. So I’m going to broach the idea of, kind of, mindfulness here and wonder if that is a part. We mentioned in your intro that you are a life-long mindfulness practitioner. And when you say life-long, I picture you, like, coming out of the womb in a yoga pose, but how long has this been?

Megan: Well, I grew up in Berkeley in the 60’s so that’s almost true that I came out of the womb, I mean I’m probably as close as anyone towards that since there was a lot of that around when I was growing up. Well, so the first time mindfulness was formally introduced to me was when I was in 5th grade. So we truly did do mindfulness in my classroom. At that time it was a very new and innovative idea and actually by the time I left high school, I’d had a second full year of having a teacher who brought mindfulness into the regular daily parts of my life. So for me, mindfulness has always been there, you know, for the most part. I guess pre-10 years old. Mindfulness has always been a part of my life and something that I’ve known is there. I haven’t always used it well. I mean, I used to work for an organization focused on bringing mindfulness to the schools and I said I was the poster child for the bad kid in teaching a mindfulness class. I got into the worst trouble of my life in that 5th grade class because I didn’t want to do it at that time.But it’s always been there for me. And by the time I got to my high school years and I took that second mindfulness course, then I actually really saw the value of it.

So I took that second mindfulness course when I was in high school because I thought I was gonna be clever and not have to, like it would be a class where I could get an easy A. You know, I was working the system. And it was true. It was an easy A, but what I didn’t realize was how much it would help me cope with all the other things happening in my life at that time like applying for colleges and just, you know, dealing with all the relationship things that are true in high school and the stress of all the homework. I noticed a shift after I went into that class with how I felt for the rest of the day and that basically made me hooked from that moment onwards. I’ve been actively practicing mindfulness really since I’ve been 18 years old and I’m 48 so I’m on 30 years of it at this point.

Tina: Wow. Awesome. And it is much more than meditation, right?

Megan: Right, yeah. I think it’s always helpful to break the terms apart. So meditation is an intentional practice of bringing ourselves back into the present moment. So what that means is, when we sit down to meditate, we are practicing, almost like if we’re going to the gym, if we have a fitness routine and we’re going to the gym and we’re intentionally doing bicep curls because we want to make our biceps stronger. That’s what meditation is. So meditation is dedicating time to bring ourselves back into the present moment because our minds are built to travel all over the place. Often in the past and in the future, thinking about something that’s happened to us or what’s gonna happen next. And very rarely do we stay in the present. So when we’re meditating, we’re bringing ourselves back into the present moment and we’re noticing when our mind’s gone off and we bring ourselves back again. Often that bringing ourselves back again is connected to breathing so that’s probably the most common and known mindfulness meditation practice. So you’re sitting there counting your breaths or paying attention to your breaths. Within a few minutes our minds are off somewhere. At some point in the meditation we catch that our minds have gone off thinking and we bring ourselves back to noticing our breath again. You can do it also noticing body sensations or sounds around you but it’s just that dedicated practice.

Mindfulness is that, kind of, present moment awareness on the fly as we’re doing our, kind of living our regular lives. So if we go back to the gym analogy, mindfulness is like choosing to park a little bit farther away from our school or office and walk a couple blocks to support our exercise routine while we’re on our way to work anyway or choosing to take the stairs rather than the elevator. So it’s integrating a more healthy lifestyle or exercise routine into our daily life, into the things we’re doing. Same thing for mindfulness. So mindfulness is just choosing to be, as much as possible, in our present moment awareness, not off somewhere else. It can still include breathing. So I often talk about short, small, integrative mindfulness practices like a three breath micro-practice. Like just stop and take three breaths and bring yourself back in again to the present moment. But it could be, you know, really whatever you like to do. I love smelling roses and I go on lots of walks with my son so I’ve kind of trained myself, whenever I see a rose bush, to just stop and smell it and that’s my mindfulness moment. It brings me right back to the present moment. But it could be almost anything. It could be sitting outside for five minutes, choosing not to look at your email or text messages when you’re at a stop light. Just simple ways of sitting with where you are in the moment.

Tina: Nice.

Serena: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. So, somehow in the midst of everything else you’re doing you found the time to write a book! And that book is called An Educator’s Guide for Using Your 3 Eyes and clearly you’ve written this for educators, but I have to say that there is so much in the book that is applicable to everyone. One of the things I’m gonna point out here that you...that stood out to me in the book was the concept of what you call “Believing Eyes”. You write, “Believing Eyes are people who cheer us on, reflect back our assets, and keep us going when times get tough. Believing eyes can be our parents, co-workers, partners or children, anyone we trust enough to share our struggles and dreams with. These are the people who remind us how awesome we are! When we surround ourselves with people who genuinely believe in us and want us to be successful, then we believe in ourselves even more, and our goals are more attainable.” (p.114)

Tina: And Serena and I love that because we support families and use the term “champion”. We’ve done this for a long time. It’s the very same concept and particularly within the schools, it’s important to build positive partnerships and this is a key to that. Like, find your people. So, any suggestions for ways we can find our champions or our Believing Eyes?

Megan: Yeah, that’s a great question. So it’s occurring to me...the person who coined Believing Eyes, I just want to give credit to, is a woman named Sonia Choquette who does actually a lot of spiritual teaching. I heard that phrase and I have the whole 3 eyes thing so I loved it and I grabbed onto it. But you’re right, it’s a common practice but now what’s coming up for me is something that Brene Brown shared about how she helped her daughter figure out who to trust. So it’s marble jar.

Tina: We love the marble jar but please tell everyone about it. Yeah.

Megan: OK. So you probably told everybody about it but the marble jar in real quick terms is basically, you know, you have to build trust over time and you have to be able to see if people can trust you. So the concept was, and again because I’m an educator I gravitated to it as well, her daughter’s teacher was using a marble jar to have the kids earn credit toward something in the classroom. Often people do that. You give little motivators for kids to be able to earn, you know, whatever. A pizza party or whatever the teacher is trying to give them to motivate them to do. And every time the kids did something that would give them credit, they got some marbles put into their jar. And she likened that to how to help her daughter figure out who to trust. And I think it’s just such a beautiful way of thinking about it that, if you imagine people are kind of this marble jar sensibility, the way people show trust to you or therefor get marble, put marbles in your jar to show that they can be your Believing Eyes is by showing that they’re paying attention to you, that they know who you are, they listen and see what your likes and preferences are. They know who your kids are or what happened to you this weekend or if you have a family member who’s not doing well. They’re just noticing you. So I think those are the people you can start to cultivate as Believing Eyes. The people that actually are genuinely noticing you for who you are and it’s the little things to me that matter. I have enough, I don’t know, people think that I can do something for them enough, a lot of people will be very friendly with me but if people aren’t noticing that I have a kid or paying attention to some of the things I’ve said about myself, then I know that those aren’t people that I can trust in that way. So I think the marble jar analogy is a helpful way to start to identify those people.

Professionally I’ve actually just cultivated people to be my Believing Eyes, frankly. When we work with people on a consistent basis, there are people you see in a lot of meetings all the time and so I decided just to take the risk to trust a couple of people that I saw regularly in meetings and I just asked them to be those Believing Eyes for me or to kind of be those champions for me and to see myself in a good way. Kind of name what I was working on and ask them to help me. Help me, actually in two ways. Help me to give me feedback when I was not on mission or on point but also to help to reinforce the things that I was doing well, that they felt like I was doing well. And I found that people will, you know, if you pick the right person, someone who seems to be genuine and open, they’re more than happy to be those Believing Eyes for you. But it can be your kid. It can be almost anything. It doesn’t have to be someone, you know, some people don’t feel like they have a lot of people in their lives that can do that for them. You can make up that Believing Eye person or imagine it’s Oprah talking to you. It doesn’t really matter, frankly. It’s just having a source, you know, a source that reflects your goodness back to you and I think there are a lot of ways if you start to get curious about that.

Tina: Oprah or Brene Brown. One or the other.

Megan: Yeah. Or Brene. Brene’s another good one. I had a whole series of talks with Oprah so that’s where that came from. You know, in my head obviously but Brene’s another great Believing Eye person.

Serena: And I’m just gonna point out how you ended that when you talked about remaining curious and that is something that, gosh, so many things resonate with me, but that remaining curious. Again, we use that a lot with the families we support and the school staff as well as a way of remaining more open-minded and wondering about the story that you don’t know and I think that you get into that several times in the book.

Megan: Mmhm. Yeah, I just think curiosity is such a wonderful word and concept. It’s one of my favorites because it is, you know, we all want to know how to be better, stronger, whatever or help kids. Whatever it is but when we look at it from a place of deficit or of wrong or of not-doing which is often what we do, it’s just so closed off and it actually doesn’t allow us to see the full truth of things because then we get kicked into judgment and our own reaction to that or protectiveness or whatever. But curiosity is just open. It’s just looking at things without any kind of agenda attached to it and that just opens up a whole new world or possibilities or what else could be true.

Serena: Yeah. So one more concept that I wanted to talk about that comes up a lot in your book is the idea that we need to do self-work before we can do the work outside of ourselves. Again, you talk about this in terms of self-work vs. school-work but I think I’d like to take a wider lens and say that self-work ALWAYS has to happen first. So what is self-work? What does that look like?

Megan: Yeah. Self-work...and the work part, sometimes I don’t like but it just works so well with school work so I had to go with it. But self-work basically just means dedicating time and energy to caring for ourselves and valuing ourselves. So self-work is developing our emotional intelligence. It’s dedicating time and energy to being kind to ourselves, to learning about ourselves, to being our own best friends, really. And when we do that, when we start to open up and treat ourselves with care and curiosity and start to develop our emotional intelligence, what happens is we start to become aware of the not so awesome parts of ourselves that we all have as well. But we’re able to work with them in a different way because when we take away that judgment and that criticism and that harshness and greet it with a little bit more gentleness and openness, then we can start to...those parts of ourselves that we’re working so hard to not see can kind of poke their heads out, so to speak. And we can see it a little bit more and then we can start to work with it.

So self-work is just really important especially when we are working with kids whether they are our own children or children we’re serving in some kind of professional capacity. To me it’s just crucial because if we’re not paying attention to how we’re showing up, the biases we might have, those parts of ourselves we were given when we were kids, right? The beliefs we have about our own capacity or about others. I talk a lot in my book about implicit bias because it’s a huge problem in education. Those are biases we didn’t choose to have, you know, the ones that our society give to us, but none-the-less they impact us and they impact the life outcomes for our kids.

So when we do self-work, we open ourselves up to just acknowledging that those biases are there, that maybe we are struggling with a particular kid in our class or that we’re working with or our own child. You know I’ve done a lot of self-work to help myself be more successful with my son. I’m noticing when I get upset and it’s usually I’m upset with him when he’s reflecting me back to me, right, in some way. I’m like, oh shoot, that’s me. So maybe I don’t need to be so mad at him right now because I gave that to him. But the self-work helps me see that and therefore when I see that I can choose differently rather than getting really upset or being really critical of him, which means being critical of myself. I can greet him with a little more kindness or I can open up a little bit more. So the self-work really is just that. It’s getting curious with ourselves and being friends with ourselves.

Tina: Mmhm. And taking good care of ourselves.

Megan: Taking good care of ourselves.

Tina: Yeah. That brings us to a question we like to ask all of our guests about whatever you want to say. Self-care, renewal, whatever, you know, self-kindness. You have an excellent science-based argument for why we should all be practicing self-care. So tell us about that.

Megan: Sure. I don’t remember which one is in the book, but I’ll give you this one because it’s the one that’s on my mind right now. I think about it in education settings a lot but...actually when we practice self-care and maybe another way of thinking about it is self-compassion, we’re much better able to create the changes we want to see in ourselves than when we’re critical. So we kind of, our brains are trained towards looking at the negative. In society we’re trained to be really harsh critics of ourselves and to say really mean, unkind things to ourselves. But in reality those become self-fulfilling prophecies so I’m a big fan of mantras. Not everybody is. People think it’s too “woo-woo” for everyone but really all those things we say to ourselves all day long, that inner dialogue, those are mantras too. That’s us saying things. So if we say things to ourselves like, I’m stupid or I’m dumb or I messed up again or I’m never gonna be successful, we’re training ourselves to believe that about ourselves and it actually doesn’t make us better. I think we often think that that harsh critic is a motivator but Dr. Kristin Neff did a lot of research and she’s a self-compassion expert and she’s found that actually, that harsh language, that criticism that we tend to give to ourselves actually does not work. It doesn’t make us change and sometimes actually reinforces a negative habit even more. However if we treat ourselves with compassion and self-compassion which she defines as just acknowledging the pain, feeling that connection to a larger world beyond ourselves, so essentially knowing that other people are feeling this kind of pain right now whether it’s the heartbreak from a relationship dissolving or something that’s happened, just knowing that other people are feeling it right now and then the third step is choosing to treat ourselves as we would treat a friend. So if our friend made a mistake and yelled at her child, we wouldn’t tell them that they are stupid, mean and a terrible parent. We just never would say that and we probably wouldn’t see it in them. We would see all the great ways that they’re a great parent and we would be supportive to them in that moment. But when we yell at our own kid, it's the reverse, right?

So with self-compassion we start to treat ourselves just like we would treat a friend. We talk to ourselves in that way. We show ourselves that same kind of nurturing. And what Kristin Neff has found is when we do that, we’re much better able to create the changes we want to have happen in the world and in ourselves. We change quicker, faster, it lasts longer than the criticism. So that’s one example of how the self-care is really important.

Serena: Yeah, so what does that self-care look like for you personally? We always like to get ideas and share. So how do you practice self-care?

Megan: Hmm. I’m not always good at it so I’ll say that right up front. I feel like people say, oh I’m great, and I’m like, no, you’re not. Everybody makes mistakes. The way it looks lately has been, you know, number one, one big huge moment of self-care was choosing to quit my full-time job. So that was a major self-care moment for me. Right now what it looks like is scheduling time to exercise. So I’ve scheduled myself at a gym that if you cancel within 24 hours, you’re charged fifteen dollars per class which is awful but what it is is a big motivator, right? I don’t wanna lose fifteen dollars, so I make myself...it’s great. It motivates me to get there every single time and so I’ve worked my schedule around that. And so I go to the gym, I exercise more. I try and just sit outside for a minute. I get a lot of energy from sitting outside so sometimes self-care is 5 minutes on my bench outside. That’s all I can swing. It is noticing the inner dialogue and trying to say nice things to myself. And I’ve built them into my day. So I have this silly thing that I do where I stretch my arms out wide and take a big deep breath and I say to myself, “I’m meant to soar.” which I’ve never said to anybody else. So you guys are the first. But I’ve trained myself to say that all the time and I feel great every time I say it so that’s one of my self-care moments and that takes, you know, two seconds. Big deep breath and a nice little mantra.

Tina: That is amazing. I might adopt that. Yeah. So one more question for you today. Knowing that we all deal with change personally and that you deal with it professionally as well, is there something that you’ve learned along the way that you wish you had known earlier? In other words, is there some wisdom you can share with anyone out there struggling with change, maybe even me?

Megan: You know, the first thing I think is just to be compassionate with ourselves because I think we think that if we just barrel through or white-knuckle it and just push through whatever is hard that that’s what we should do. But actually I think when things are hard and we’re facing a change, that’s when we need to build in those self-care moments even more so I would say that’s a way to do it.

I think another way is to ask for help which I’m terrible at but I think is really great. A friend of mine, just recently, she’s gonna go through a surgery and she just reached out to everyone and was like, look, we need some help. Like we’re not doing well right now and we just need some support. And I just thought that was such a brave thing to do because we often don’t do it in this society but, you know, all of us were more than happy to help and drop off a meal or just check in on them. And just knowing that she’s struggling, of course I want to reach out to her. So I think those kinds of things can be helpful.

If it’s a big change and you feel like it’s gonna be going on for a while I think also just mapping it out. The way I’m living right now because I have so many changes going on is I’m living day by day and so every day I kind of map out what my day is and when I start to feel like there’s too much I reevaluate. What’s the most crucial thing for me to do today? And what are the things I could actually put off if I need to? And then I actually make those course corrections rather than just trying to power through and that’s helping a lot as well.

Serena: Yeah. So we said that was the last question but I’m gonna throw this out there. Is there anything that we didn’t ask you today that you’d like to put out there to the world? I don’t think we mentioned your website so whatever you want to throw out there.

Megan: Yeah. Thanks. Well this summer I am providing a training for folks on how to get ready for the new school year because there’s so much, you know, everyone’s been dealing with a lot because of the pandemic and schools are reopening and parents are working with their kids. I’m offering a free course on just how to ready our kids or ourselves for the next school year because there’s gonna be a lot going on there. So if folks go to my website, which is www.your3eyes.com or you can look up Your 3 Eyes on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. You can find me on LinkedIn. Megan Sweet on LinkedIn. There will be information forthcoming about those free classes. And it’s really just my offering to everyone as we prepare for the start of the school year. I would just love for people to come and have some ideas for how they can take care of themselves and their children as they get ready for what’s gonna be an eventful, I think, start of the next school year.

Serena: Yeah, there’s definitely a need for that, for sure. So thank you for sharing that and we will definitely share links in our show notes and on our website. So Megan, thank you so much for joining us today and for all of the good stuff you are putting out there into the world and all the change you’re managing in a number of ways!

Megan: Well, thank you for having me. It was so much fun.

Tina: Yeah. So podcast friends, we are, as always, grateful for all of you listening and supporting us. You can help us out by visiting Apple podcasts, leaving us a review, subscribing and sharing with others. We would also love to hear from you on our website. You can email us. NoNeedtoExplainPodcast.com.

Serena: And this is your gentle reminder to take good care of yourself while you are also taking care of your people.

Tina: Thanks again for listening!

Serena: Bye!

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