Pressure Makes Diamonds with Guest Carline Crevecoeur

Serena: Hey Everyone, I?m Serena.

Tina: And I?m Tina and we are the Mental Health Mamas.

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Serena: Welcome to No Need to Explain, we are so glad you?re here.

Tina: First, as always, a quick disclaimer.

Serena: We come to you NOT as mental health professionals or experts in the field, but rather as parents with lived experience who are on a mission to normalize the conversation around mental health.

Tina: If you or someone you love is experiencing a mental health crisis, please seek professional support. You?ll find a variety of resources in our show notes and on our website, NoNeedToExplainPodcast.com.

Serena: I think that part of being a parent is about having to make some sacrifices for our children. For me this has been mostly about less time for myself and knowing that when my kids are sick or hurt that nothing else in the world matters.

Tina: They always come first, for sure. I definitely agree that parenting involves sacrifice. As you know Serena, I was a teacher before my first was born and although that was my passion, it just wasn?t possible or affordable for our family for me to continue to teach and for my husband to further his career and that truly was a sacrifice.

Serena: We have a guest joining us today who made many sacrifices to insure that her five children had the best education they could possibly have. Carline Crevecoeur is a Haitian American board-certified obstetrician and gynecologist who after 20 years of medical service in New York and Pennsylvania, left her medical career behind to raise and homeschool her five children. Carline, welcome to the podcast and thank you so much for joining us today!

Carline: Oh, thank you so much for having me and letting me speak today. And I just wanted to say that thank you for everything that you do because I think it is so important. Mental Health Mamas in this day and age with everything that everyone has been going through. So thank you so much for what you do.

Tina: Well thank you! We love it as you know. So let?s jump right in and talk about the decision you made to leave your career and to homeschool those five young people you had at the time. That must have been kind of a hard decision for you.

Carline: It was a very hard decision because I just never saw it coming. I?m one of these planners in life. I kind of plan my life for the next five, ten years down the road and I just felt that, especially at the time there was women?s lib and you could bring home the bacon and you could do all of that. And I felt like I was one of these women that I could have five kids and still keep my career and juggle everything. And I realized, sadly, that I was mistaken. It was not possible dealing with my career, my husband, my kids, their needs and something had to give. The world was closing in on me. And I just couldn?t do it.

Tina: We are led to believe that we can do it all and permission slip, we can?t always do it all right?

Serena: So was there a turning point for you at which you realized?what was it that made you make that big move?

Carline: Well my husband and I, we grew up in New York. I left Haiti when I was two and I came to this country at 5 so most of my life has been in the United States and so once we got married and we moved to Pennsylvania we didn't have any family in the area. It was just us. And we weren?t planning to stay. We had good job offers so we figured we would just pass through. We had no kids. Five years later, five kids later we are still in Central Pennsylvania with no family. So, now the kids are starting daycare preschool and I'm working and my husband is also a physician and we're trying to juggle our schedules, our on call schedule so that we're home with the kids. One of us, at least, is home with the kids on the weekends. And then our vacation, we have to try to work that in together so we?re always trying to talk with our partners about changing our calls or changing our vacation schedule and it was hectic.

So let alone that and then having to deal with my two oldest didn?t want to go to school any more for different reasons and they were six and five years old at the time. Danielle was a brilliant child and she was really bored with school. What she was learning was, she had learned that in preschool. And my son, he did not like being confined to a chair. And he had started off at Montessori preschool where he walked around all day and did what he wanted to do and he was a very inquisitive child. He wasn?t as outspoken as Danielle. He had to process information and he had to feel things and walk around. That?s how he learned. And so when he started Kindergarten he had to sit in a classroom. That just was unbearable for him. So I had my two of them crying in the morning that they didn?t want to go to school and I had to go to work. I had surgery to do. I couldn?t do this.

And then what finally stopped?what finally convinced me was when my third child, Nicholas, who was about three years old at the time, he was injured by our latest babysitter. And that?s another problem. We had a hard time keeping babysitters. I thought the pay was great looking back at it but it?s also that sometimes they would be sick. They would call in sick?Carline I can?t come. And that?s my surgery day and my husband?it always fell on me somehow. He just left. I had to deal with, ok, what do I do now? Sometimes I took the kids to work with me. Sometimes I would call a neighbor to pick up my kids. It was just always on me. And then I?m at my office. I?m seeing patients and my babysitter calls me and she?s crying that there?s an injury. I need to come home immediately. So I have to tell my patients I have to leave, there?s an emergency and fortunately for me in OB that happens a lot because you?re seeing your patients and then you have a delivery to go do. And so I think they all understood that but it wasn?t a delivery. It was my home life that was crashing in on me. And so I get to my house. I get to my home and the babysitter?s crying. And my son, his face is swollen and she injured him by mistake but at that point I was just full of rage. I mean, it?s?you have hurt my child. And so my husband comes home and she leaves and then we take (we pick up the other kids) and my husband takes my Nicholas to the hospital making sure he?s ok. That evening we just realized we can?t go on like this. It was just too chaotic and something had to give. Finally we had to realize it was me.

My husband wanted?my husband and I, we come from a family of five and so we had always said that we would have five kids when we were dating. Because we love a big family. And the reality is that it?s hard to have a big family. And so after he had his boy and his girl, exactly it. He says, Carline, we?re done. And I said no. We said we were gonna have five kids. I still want to have five and he goes Carline, I don?t want to have five any more. And I beg and pleaded and he gave in and we had five kids. We were gonna stop at four actually but then we had twins so I ended up having my five kids after all. It was a boy and a girl twin and you should see them. My little Jackie, my youngest, she?s like my husband?s joy and pride because she?s the youngest and that?s Daddy?s little girl. So because of all those reasons when he said that he would quit or one of us has to quit, I knew it had to be me. He gave in to my demand of having five kids and I felt that it should be me. If somebody should quit it should be me and then eventually once the kids are back in school?probably middle school, I would go back to work. So that?s how it started. I never planned to homeschool my kids but that was the best thing that I ever could have done. I enjoyed it. I love it. It was one of the happiest, chaotic, fun part of my life.

Serena: So I would say that I?ve had moments in my life where I?ve considered homeschooling my kids but ultimately I?ve decided that it wasn?t the right decision for me and my family. I don?t think that I have enough mastery of all of the different subjects needed to provide my kids with that well-rounded education, or to be honest, I don?t think I have the patience for homeschooling. So I?m curious for you, what parts of homeschooling were challenging for you?

Carline: You know, that?s such a good point what you brought up about yourself because that?s part of the reason I also wrote my memoir. Because I just want to let people know it?s not for everyone. And it?s OK if you realize, hey, it?s not for me. As much as I enjoyed it, it?s not for everybody. So that?s so important to state right up front. The part that I enjoyed the most was the creativity, the questions. They were amazing. Some of the questions that my kids raised, I?m thinking, wow, that?s a good one. And I think the honesty that comes with the closeness, the bonding with your kids because sometimes I didn?t know the answer and they were like, Mom, you don?t know the answer? I said, no and that?s ok because there?s ways of finding out the answer. And once they realize, hey, wait a minute, I can find out the answer myself they became self motivated. They would sometimes share information if I gave them a project to do, they would go beyond the initial project and get so involved in that project that they ended up doing so much more than I imagined. And that was because they realized that they could take part in the education. It doesn?t have to be a one way street where mom just sits there and dictates to us. We could also teach mom. Every once in a while when the kids, especially Michael, (Mikey, he?s named after my husband) he would share some things with me and I would say, wow, that?s fascinating. He goes, oh, I guess I?m becoming a teacher. I said yes, there?s teaching in all of us. I am never gonna say I can?t learn from anyone. I think that was a very important lesson for them to know. Because it?s so right. You can learn from everyone. Everyone has different experiences in life and just sitting down and talking to people?people are fascinating.

Tina: Yeah and it?s amazing. Kids come up with amazing things and it?s exciting to watch them grow and learn. So as you said, you have a memoir and it?s called Pressure Makes Diamonds. Can you share with our audience why you chose that title?

Carline: I chose it for several reasons. It has a lot of mixed meaning. The pressure at first when somebody says ?pressure? and they think homeschooling then they think, OK, so she put a lot of pressure on her homeschool kids so that they could go to the Ivy League. And that?s absolutely false but that was the insinuation. Where my five black kids were excelling at everything, especially in our little environment that was majority white and asian. That wasn?t seen a lot and people were questioning this. Why are these kids doing so well? And so a counselor actually pulled my kid aside and had a long talk with him. Are you sure you?re not getting pressured at home? What is your home life like? An you know, I understand how counselors need to look out for kids because you just never know and some kids could be suicidal. Things could be going on in their life. As a physician I also have to be very careful with a child that had frequent UTIs or infections. You want to rule out any possible harm that could be happening. That?s your job, I think, especially when you deal with kids. So I get that but a lot of times you have to have an indication, a suspicion for that. I wouldn't just accuse a parent of some misbehavior at home because?just out of the blue. I would have some reason. And this is why I felt these questions were not warranted. Because my kids were fairly happy kids. You know, I have to say that. Our family life was beautiful. Of course during the teenage years there?s always rebellion and that?s actually I think good. I think it?s good for the kids to speak up as much as we may hate it but we?re?but I think it?s part of the natural development of children. And so when I got these questions about putting pressure on my kids, I realized that, I don?t know, would you have said that to me if my kids were Asian? If my kids were white? I mean is there an underlying reason why you?re doing this? So I named that title Pressure Makes Diamonds to dispel that you have to put pressure on your kids. We were organized, I have to say. And I felt that actually my kids ended up putting more pressure on themselves than I could have ever. I told them that it?s ok to fail but to be honest it?s worse to not have tried at all. I think that was the message I?I definitely pushed them and encouraged them to be in a lot of competition and to try to succeed at everything you do because then you take it very important. You don?t play around. You learn. If you?re going to be sitting in a classroom why not learn it? Why not try your best to understand it to the best of your ability and excel at it? And so if you don?t like something, try to find out why you don?t like it instead of just saying, oh, I don?t like math, I don?t like science. Well, why not? What have they done to you? They?re subjects, you know? So then my kids were never afraid to try new things with that attitude. Then they really did want to win everything they did. And that?s OK too just as long as you know that you?re not gonna win everything. So that was another reason I called it pressure because I felt like sometimes our kids put pressure on themselves because I think they expect us to be impressed with that. So I have to talk to them about, especially my youngest?

But the most important thing about Pressure Makes Diamonds is also in being a mom and being a teacher and being a wife. I feel like we put pressure on ourselves. We don?t want to admit it sometimes. I felt like I had to be the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect teacher. I had to excel at everything. I had to be a role model to my kids and you can?t live up to all that. At a certain point you just have to be honest with yourself and what you are capable of doing. And I think when you realize how much pressure you could put on yourself or your kids or your family, because Lord knows there?s a lot of pressure in the outside world. There?s also pressure pulling on us. And at some point you?re going to crack. You?re going to self-destruct if you don?t set boundaries and you don?t set limits. And once you do that, the pressure that you?re able to handle, you come out smelling like a rose. You come out shining like a diamond and so this is looking at pressure from all different perspectives.

Serena: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. So, you share in the midst of?in your book you share that in the midst of homeschooling, as if that wasn?t enough, right, homeschooling five children, you were diagnosed with Stage IV colon cancer. I can?t even imagine how scary that was for you and your family family and yet somehow you managed to continue homeschooling through it all. So how did you do it?

Carline: I think that I needed to do that. I needed to think of someone else besides myself. I needed to?it was like my outlet, my denial that I was actually going through this. And I felt that I was always strong and had to be strong here and it was just a minor setback. Especially the first time when I was diagnosed with Stage III and I felt, OK, I?m gonna go through this. After it?s done, I?m gonna continue with my life. So I just felt like this was just a little hiccup along the way, a boulder that fell in my path and I just had to just go around it and then just continue. And I tried. In the beginning it worked and then towards the end of my treatment, I was getting extremely sick and the kids had to kind of pick up their teaching and their education on their own. And they did a fairly good job. I was very proud of them. But that was a very difficult part in my life. The second time when I was stage four, then that?s when everything just kind of came to a halt because I was not expecting that. The first time was a shock but the second time was like an earthquake. I just expected?I did everything I was supposed to do and I did it and I?m done and it?s over. I?ve succeeded. I?ve faced the music and it?s over. And when it wasn?t over, when it came back two years later in my lungs, then I was devastated, especially as Stage IV, my diagnosis, my survival rate was only 36 months. And I?m the type of person that I didn?t know about the mental health at that time. We?especially my generation, especially in my Haitian upbringing, you just stick it out. You just handle it as a parent. You know, we have setbacks but we have our kids to look after and you just have to deal with all your problems by yourself. And it was hard because even my husband, I felt, being a physician he knew everything I was going through. Not all the feelings I was going through but at least medically. And so when he looked at me there was all this terror and fear in his eyes that I felt if he asked me how I was doing, I said, I?m OK. I?m OK. And I wasn?t OK. But I felt that I had to protest everyone around me because I was doing this somehow to them. It was my fault. One of the first things, now they do it pretty often, but especially the second time around I was offered mental help. I was offered group therapy and I went once and I couldn?t go back. I couldn?t really talk about my feelings because I never did that before. It was something new to me. I just felt that I had to deal with it on my own and I eventually did but looking back now, I wish I did talk to other people going through the same thing because we can?t talk to our family sometimes. We feel like we?re hurting them more than they need to be hurt. And so talking through other people that?s gone through this, I think would have been beneficial. So I eventually did come out of it and actually writing my memoir and writing that part of it...I wrote that part in one sitting. I started at six o?clock in the morning and I finished around midnight and afterwards I cried. I cried. I just didn?t know I still had this much emotion of what I was going through still locked up. And I realized that after the second one was over more of less because it?s never really over, you?re still in fear. But more or less when I was like two years out, we never talked about it in my house. You know, it was something Mom did. It?s over. We don?t talk about it any more. And only writing this memoir did I realize that this feeling, this fear was still bottled up in me. And I don?t think it ever really goes away. It gets better. But when you go for your yearly exam which I still have to, I always feels like, oh my God, this is gonna be the year that it?s gonna come back. And so now because I?ve written the book and because other people just knew about some of the things that I?ve gone through, I have spoken to other people that have been recently diagnosed. And out of the blue I haven?t spoken to them in years and they say, Carline, I heard you went through this. Could you share some information with me? I was so happy to be able to do that. To be able to give them hope where I felt it was necessary. And to be honest when I felt it was necessary. And you know one of my friends said, I was waiting til next year to get married but I think I?m gonna do it now. I?m gonna propose and we?re just gonna go to the courthouse and get married because this is something I?ve always wanted to do and I don?t want to put this off any more because their cancer diagnosis was really more advanced than mine was. And so I just have to be honest. I said, I will never say never, keep hoping, however, I do think that you should look at everything good that you went through in your life and then you have to come to peace with that. For me, when I let go, the four time, because I was in fear. I mean the drugs I was on were so nasty. It was so bad. At some point?I was angry and I was depressed. I was fearful. I kept?every time I went to bed I didn?t think I would wake up the next day. I think I would have an aneurysm because these are all the side effects that they said was possible with the medication. And I just didn?t like looking at myself in the mirror. I was bald. I didn?t recognize me. And when I finally said, OK, you know what? I can?t change this this but this is not the way I want to end my life. This is not how I want my kids to remember me. I?m stopping all this. once I decided to face the truth, face my life being ended then I wanted some amount of control again. I felt I needed to be able to control my death. And once I did that there was just this wave of anxiety that just flew off me. I was able to start laughing again. I was able to play with my kids again. I just saw a different life and once I did that I didn?t die.

Tina: So that?s a lot. It is a lot and it?s not something all of us go through, for sure. We may see others go through it. And it?s such a process, right? You know, I'm just gonna tune in to, again there was so much, but I think the idea of your writing being almost healing for you, right?

Carline: It was.

Tina: I think the grieving that goes on, you know, all those stages of grieving. The anger. The sadness. The guilt you felt, right? All that stuff and Serena and I have certainly through the pain we?ve been through in our lives certainly try to make purpose and yet we have experienced lots of that. Right Serena? With the writing and it can super be healing in ways that are good. So it sounds like that was a good outlet for you. And I will also say when you are ill I?m sure all of those gifts you gave your children in teaching them were?they were on auto-pilot, right? They knew what to do because you?re the Mama who taught them how to do that stuff.

Carline: Yeah they did and they did it too well in a way. They didn?t need me any more and that was awful sad because I always felt everybody has to need their mom. I mean, I?m the mom. I handle everything and yet things were being processed and done without me. And that was a little shocking to see. One thing you did say about the different stages of grief is that people have to realize that you don?t go through one stage and you?re done and then you go through the next stage. You go back and forth. There?s days that you?re more acceptance and you say, OK. And then other days you are angry again and you thought you got over the anger. You were at acceptance. It doesn?t. It does fluctuate and as you progress then finally you could leave one stage behind but it?s not something overnight. You fluctuate between those moments.

Tina: Absolutely. And I would also highlight the connection piece, right? I think it?s part of why we do what we do. You were clearly going through so much and while the group didn?t work for you the first time, the serving others at the other end of things, really, that did serve you, right? So I think the connection, knowing we?re not alone, right? Knowing we?re not alone in this fight, whatever fight it is we?re fighting.

Carline: Yeah. I think the first thing when they told me that maybe I should go to group therapy because I?m depressed. And I was like, yes, I?m depressed because I have cancer. That?s the reason. What is group therapy gonna do for me? Is it gonna cure my cancer? No, it?s not. So I went in there, if you?re not gonna heal me, then I don?t need to talk to any of you. And so I went in there with a negative attitude not thinking it?s a moment to share what we?re all going through and to take strength in each other?s problems and acceptance and to be known that this is kind of a safe space to just be honest. And you could cry because I couldn?t do it. After my husband left for the day or my kids were gone, that?s when I would cry. I couldn?t cry in front of them but in that space you could be you. You could be afraid. You could. And I didn?t know where to do that. It was also while I was going through it I realized, wow, this is what group therapy could have been about because I felt I needed that. But at the beginning when they had told me I should go I was too angry to even think about that they can?t do anything for me. If you?re not gonna take away my cancer, why am I wasting my time? And so I was too angry to accept what group therapy was about.

Tina: Yeah. No. We hear you and I think it?s important for our listeners to hear that there are a lot of feels that go with group therapy and there are a lot of benefits, right? That connection with others. You are not alone. Others are going through things. They might not be exactly your things, but I think there is some power in togetherness. However you find that. And again, the right thing. So let?s shift gears a little bit.

Carline: OK.

Tina: I?m curious. You were recently elected to the school board of the State College Area School District in State College, Pennsylvania. So thanks for doing that hard job! We all know that that?s a hard job. So what made you run for that position?

Carline: I?ve thought about it. Actually, one of the Superintendent?s put that in my head years ago because I guess I was like a pain to him. Every time he saw me coming he was like, oh my God, this woman. Because I had questions how they were treating homeschoolers and I had things that should be done differently. He says, you know, you come up with such great ideas but instead of working in the system you just take your kids and say I don?t want to be part of your system and do my own thing with my kids, where you could be doing good for all the kids. And I felt guilty. I really did. Because in a way I felt he was right but it takes such a long time to change things that I realized that my kids will be graduating before things are changed and I don?t have that time. I said, yeah right, maybe when my kids are older I?ll come back and do this. I just said it as a joke. I wasn?t thinking about it. But I did do a lot of changes for our homeschool district so it?s not just my kids. I did do changes that we were really happy with. And so after my kids left and we were empty nesters I felt that, yeah, maybe it?s the time I should consider the school board. This was the first year of the pandemic so it wasn?t as angry as things have gotten over the years, over the following year. I was not expecting a lot of some of the turmoils that happened. But still I am really happy that I did go run for school board because I feel like I have a lot to contribute, especially in the curriculum and the diversity and just having different voices because I?m also the first black woman that?s been elected to the school board and I think it?s important to have different voices at the table and to bring in issues that maybe other people don?t consider important but it would be important to some of us in the black community to hear our voices. So for a lot of reasons and I?m learning a lot too. I?m the type that I can?t stay put. I have to find something to do. I feel like I?ve always been kind of a type A personality and that?s another thing about personalities. I feel like, if that?s you, then it?s fine because some people say, oh my God, it?s too stressful being a type A personality. And to some extent it can be but it?s what wakes you up in the morning. But it's not for everyone and so if you?re not that type and you?re trying to be that type, that?s when you?re going to be lot of stressful situations and medical problems. And you just have to know that that?s now how you deal with things. Where for me, I kind of like being busy. I kind of like being organized. And so once my kids were grown and out of the house I felt like that was my next step to involve myself in my community. And also when I had cancer, I used to be more involved in my community, the swim team and everything that my kids did, you know, the treasurer of this club. And once I had to stop everything and then I just kind of shut down from the world. I didn?t want to engage anyone. I didn?t want anybody?s pity. I didn?t want? So even my friends. I lost touch with a lot of them. Even after I was deemed in remission I just didn?t know when it would come back and I don?t like starting things that I can?t finish. You know if I set my mind to doing something I give it my all. And with me possibly being sick again I felt that it was unfair for me to take on things like that and so after two years, my cancer didn?t come back. Three years. Four years. And I?m thinking, oh my God, maybe, just maybe. You know, I could go back and join the world of the living again and start participating in things. And so that was another reason why I felt that this was the time to do it.

Serena: Yeah. Great. Yeah. So given all of this experience, all of this lived experience we call it, homeschooling and raising your 5 kids and now that you?re serving on your local school board, what would you like to see change? In other words how can our public schools do a better job supporting all of our kids?

Carline: That is like the hundred thousand dollar question. Our kids, you know, even when I was homeschooling my five kids, I realized how different they were. I had to tailor their education to their needs. And for a school to do that with eight thousand, seven thousand kids, that?s really hard. And so I felt like this is why parents sometimes have complaints. Now being on the other side, I could see how parents could be upset because they want individual attention for their kids and I don?t know how possible that is, but I do know that a lot of, especially our school district, we are trying to tailor curriculums for different kinds of kids because we understand different needs. And so there are more programs that are?like the Delta High School which is to me, that kind of a homeschooling curriculum where the kids are?things are more flexible there. Whereas if people want the more traditional structure, we have that too. And then we also have CTC which is a career technical curriculum where kids that don?t want to go to college afterwards, they want to do things with their hands. They want to?there?s the culinary part which I think they?ve done a beautiful job with. I recently took a tour with all the things they have to offer and I think it?s amazing. I really do. So could we ever satisfy every child? No. That?s the reality. We can?t. But I think we?re trying. We?re trying to understand that kids are different, they learn different and because of that acknowledgment, we could only get better. And I think that parent?s input are very important and I think they?re starting to know this and this is something that I?m happy with because we get a lot of emails. A lot. More so than I ever imagined. But I think that?s a good thing because I think that it keeps us on our toes, it keeps us realizing?because the school board is really a governing board. When complaints come to us we go to the Superintendent and we say, how can we manage these complaints? And we tell him and we have a meeting about what are the proposals, how could we, what are the goals of how could we accomplish that. And once we set that in motion, that?s for him to do. We don?t micromanage him. And then he sets up his principals and he tells them what he wants but he doesn?t micromanage them. So we?re a governing board and people think that they can just write to us and it?s gonna be done overnight. It?s not and these things take time but those letters are very important.

Tina: Sure, it?s that voice that we need to hear, right?

Carline: Yes.

Tina: The reason you got involved is that you are a lived experience person and you think you have something to add and the folks that make the decisions, it?s important to have that voice. So thank you again for doing that. We know it?s not an easy job with all those emails. Yeah. So one more question for you today. You have clearly been on quite a journey and we can imagine that you?ve learned a lot along the way. Going back to yourself, you know, setting your kids aside for a moment and going back to you, what message might you have for our listeners about something that you now know and wish you had known earlier in your journey?

Carline: I think communication with people is so worthwhile. I do. I just felt that everybody has their own little traumas that they?re going through with life and I know that when I felt I was given a second chance and even before that when I had that diagnosis over my head and I decided that I?m not gonna be fearful any more, I started connecting more with people. I started liking people more. I did. And it was such a good feeling. I know a lot of times you talk about compassion and empathy and I feel like we?re losing that but once we get it back and we don?t totally focus on us, the world is not as scary as the news lets us believe it is. You know that connection with people is so important and I?m finding that every day. Even people that disagree with me, you know, on the school board, but I just feel like as human beings there is a connection there. I try not to be dismissive of people and I try to really listen to what they have to say and to understand where they?re coming from. And sometimes it?s moving. It?s moving what people are going through. I just feel like we should give each other more of a chance and being so open minded when we speak to each other. All this anger and hostility, a lot of times it exists on the news. And when you talk to your fellow neighbors and everything else, yeah, they may have different opinions from you but they?re not that evil person, you know? They?re not. And that took me a while to comprehend this because I lived in my own little world with my kids and we did our thing and the outside world didn?t understand what we were doing. Well, that?s on them. But then after a while you realize, no, it?s not. I?m part of that human connection. I like connecting with people. I like helping people. And in a way it?s a little selfish because it makes me feel good, you know? So that?s the message. Give people a chance because all this anger out there, I don?t think it?s necessary and I don?t think it?s as real as people try to make it.

Serena: Thank you for that. I totally agree with you. Yeah. Give people a chance. So Carline, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing about all of your experiences. We really appreciate your openness and we can imagine that the book you?ve written, which we?ll link to in our notes so everybody can find it, it will help parents out there who might be contemplating that shift to homeschooling.

Carline: Well thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was fun. This was really enjoyable.

Tina: Yeah. And I?m just gonna circle back to the empathy and compassion, that is?we need more of that in our world today, for sure. And we wish you continued wellness in your life. We will be thinking of you for sure. So podcast friends, we are, as always, grateful for all of you listening and supporting us. You can help us out by visiting Apple podcasts, leaving us a review, subscribing and share with others. We would love to hear from you. We have an email on our website NoNeedtoExplainPodcast.com. You?ll also find us on all the socials so yeah, tell us your stories, again that empathy and compassion and helping people hold hard stuff. That?s what we do so stay connected.

Serena: And this is your gentle reminder to take good care of yourself while you are also taking care of your people.

Tina: Thanks again for listening!

Serena: Bye!

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